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Which Victory are we building? Options
John Wreford
#1 Posted : 26 March 2010 13:18:13

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Hi All

As has been pointed out in another post, the Victory as we now see her in Portsmouth is not the same as she looked at the time of Trafalgar.

Does anybody know (Admin perhaps) whether the kit will represent now or then?

If 'then', what areas should we be wary of copying from the current ship?

Thanks

John
PAULS101
#2 Posted : 27 March 2010 21:17:15

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yea good point. can u help admin ?

cheers
Tarbrush
#3 Posted : 31 March 2010 01:40:10

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It's all on here somewhere chaps.LOL
Tomick
#4 Posted : 31 March 2010 09:26:30

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John Wreford wrote:
Hi All

As has been pointed out in another post, the Victory as we now see her in Portsmouth is not the same as she looked at the time of Trafalgar.

Does anybody know (Admin perhaps) whether the kit will represent now or then?

If 'then', what areas should we be wary of copying from the current ship?

Thanks

John


Its 'then' rather than 'now', for 'now' you would need to add such as capping, timberheads and forecastle hammock cranes, along with numerous other alterations made since 1805, and not forgettng a visitor access door having been added Blink
John Wreford
#5 Posted : 31 March 2010 10:17:00

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Thanks Tomick

I thought that I had read that 'now' is quite different to the 1805 version. The danger is that Victory is so easily accessible that it would be easy to fall into the trap of thinking the model is wrong when compared to the real thing.

Might put in the visitor door but call it a crocodile flap RollEyes

John
admin
#6 Posted : 01 April 2010 12:47:21
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Build your own Victory magazine comes complete with all the parts to construct a superb model of Nelson’s legendary battleship at the time of Trafalgar.

There are three options when building the model. People have the choice of unpainted, painted or even a highly detailed accurate model depending on the level of finish or accuracy they require.

1. The model is finished in natural wood and will be constructed in full sail

2. The second can be painted in the colours Victory sported at the Battle of Trafalgar

3. The third option is a cutaway.

Re your question of what to beware of copying from the modern ship, the short answer is to be very wary indeed of copying anything, since most of what you see today isn't original and she isn't rigged for going into battle. Alan McGowan says it is mainly 'the aura of the Victory of 21 October 1805' that remains, since the ship has undergone so many refits, repairs and partial restorations in the past 200 years*.

Only the keel (and not all of that), parts of the sternpost and lower decks are genuinely original. The armaments and battle equipment are either not present, similar fittings from another ship of the time, or more recent replicas. The figurehead is a replica, too. Important areas such as the cockpit are reconstructions based on contemporary illustrations, not original plans. The masts and spars are replacements with dockyard rigging so the sails and running rigging aren't present.


* The modern Victory has been repaired, refitted and restored many times since 1805. This is just a quick overview:
1806 hull repaired, all masts, spars and rigging replaced
1807 reduced to Second Rate and rerigged
further minor repairs followed until
1814 bow profile substantially modified and other major constructional changes
1823 refitted
1857 repaired and recoppered
1887 lower masts replaced with iron
1903 hull repaired after collision
1923 put in dry dock and modified for display
Round bow removed and bulkhead replaced
1941 lower hull damaged in an air raid
1955-2000 major repairs, including the replacement of much of the timber, internal fittings, masts, spars and rigging.


Thanks

Admin

“The charm of fishing is the elusive pursuit of the attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope”

John Burton
RussG
#7 Posted : 01 April 2010 13:14:51

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http://www.hms-victory.c...mp;id=78&Itemid=111

The following information has been disclosed to assist you in providing authenticity to your model of HMS Victory as she appeared at the Battle of Trafalgar 21st October 1805.

The Ship's Sides:
To be painted a dull matt finish black from the upper edge of the copper line upwards to the top of the side, divided with three broad bands of dull/matt finish yellow ochre.

Please Note;
1. The bands of yellow ochre do not correspond to the various wales (heavy bands of planking) or conform exactly to the lines of the gun ports.

2. The yellow bands do not remain the same width throughout their length but diminish towards the head and stern of the ship.

3. Each yellow band does vary in width, If you study the broadside of the ship on a suitable drawing/photograph you will note that the upper edge of each yellow band (with exception to the upper gun deck) generally follows the top edge of the gun ports whereas the lower edge is well below the ports at the midship area and rises with a slight sheer' to diminish in width afore and abaft.

Gun Port Lids:
Outer surface to be dull Black, inner surface and edges be a dull/matt finish Red Ochre. Those on Beakhead Bulkhead to be French Blue on outer surface.

Head Rails and Cheeks:
Outer surfaces to be Yellow Ochre, inner surfaces dull Black. Flutings and mouldings to be a dull finish French Blue.

Figurehead:
Cherubs - to be a soft White. That fitted starboard to have a blue sash that fitted to port side to have a red sash.
Scrollwork - French Blue and Gold.
Royal Arms - Heraldic colours - French Blue, Bright Red, White & Gold.

Beakhead Bulkhead:
Ground to be a dull French Blue with mouldings, pillars etc. in Yellow Ochre.

Stern and Quarter Galleries:
All carved work to be Yellow Ochre on a dull Black ground
Window mouldings and muilions etc. to be Yellow Ochre.
Upper Finishings - Dull Black.
Lower Finishings - Yellow Ochre on a Black ground.
Prince of Wales Plume and carved work - Heraldic colours. Lanterns - Yellow Ochre

Items to be painted a dull Black:
Rails, Belfry, Galley Flue Cowl, Skid Beams, all Eyebolts and Ring Bolts (including those on gun carriages), Gun Barrels. All Ironwork - brackets, plate knees, etc. Transom Knees on Poop Deck.

Tops, Caps and Crosstrees. Heads of all Masts, Bowsprit Cap and Head. Lower part of Jibboom. All Yards, Gaff and Boom, Lower Studdingsail Booms. Signal Lockers. Tips of Upper Studdingsail Booms.

Items to be painted a dull Yellow Ochre:
Gun Carriages, Lower Masts and Bowsprit including the Mast Hoops (originally black but painted over in yellow just prior to the Battle of Trafalgar on all ships in the fleet. This action, given under order by Nelson, was carried out to distinguish friend from foe during action).

Items to be painted a dull Red Ochre:
Gun Tompions, and facings of gun muzzles, Deck surface and battens of the Cable Tiers on the Orlop Deck. Alternative colour for the Binnacle.

Items to be varnished:
All Deck Pillars including those under Skid Beams in waist of ship. All Topmasts, Topgallant and Royal Masts, Jibboom and Flying Jibboom. All Studdingsail Booms fitted to yards, (and Studdingsail Yards if fitted for special effects) Binnacle, Skylight on Poop Deck, Gun Carriage Trucks (wheels). All Hatchways, Gratings, Shot Racks and Ladders etc.
Interior:
Inboard surfaces of bulwarks on the Poop Deck, Quarter Deck, Forecastle and Upper Gun Deck to be Yellow Ochre with black mouldings and fittings (Kevels, Cleats, Pinrails etc.)

Inboard surfaces of bulwarks on the Middle Gun Deck, Lower Gun Deck * and Orlop
Deck - to be a matt dull White to represent whitewash.

* NB: Ship's side on the Middle and Lower Gun Decks not to be painted yellow ochre
as previously believed - new evidence supports this amendment.

Deckheads - matt dull White


Ships Boats: (excluding the Admiral's Barge)
Interior - to be Yellow Ochre or `sad colour' (Yellow-Brown). Thwarts and Sternsheets
to be natural varnish.
Exterior - Dull White up to Gunwale.
Gunwale - Yellow Ochre *
Wash Strake above gunwale - Black*
Transom - as the sides.
* Although the specific colours and quantities used are known, records do not disclose
actual areas of application. In effect there were no hard and fast rules regarding the painting of ship's boats therefore these two bands of colours can be alternated. i.e. Black gunwale, Yellow washstrake.

Admirals Barge:
Interior - to be Olive Green - Thwarts and Sternsheets to be natural varnish.
Inner paneling around stern - Olive Green
picked out in Prussian Blue and Gold.

Exterior:
Dull White up to Gunwale
Gunwale - Olive green with Gold mouldings.
Washstrake above Gunwale - Dull White.
Transom - Olive Green with Gold mouldings

Boats Masts and Spars - to be varnished
Oars (or sweeps) Shafts and Blades to be White, Looms to be natural wood, Tips of blades were often be sheathed in copper.

Rigging:
Standing Rigging - all to be Black or Tarred except the
Ratlines - these were of natural hemp with a very light tarring.
Running Rigging - to be natural.
Rigging Blocks - to be natural.
Rigging and Blocks associated with the Gun Carriages and Gun Port Lids - to be natural.
Hammock Nets - to be natural.

Running and Standing Rigging Amendment Sheet

The following information has been disclosed to assist you in providing an authentic model of HMS Victory. These amendments conform to current research undertaken to rig HMS Victory as she appeared at the Battle of Trafalgar 21st October 1805.



Standing Rigging:
Mizzen Preventer Stay: To be omitted; not introduced until circa 1815.
Mizzen Topgallant Stay: To run through a thimble strapped to the head of the Main Topmast, and made fast on the main Top.
Mizzen Royal Stay: To be omitted: not introduced until circa 1810.
Mizzen Royal Backstay: To be omitted: not introduced until circa 1810.


Running Rigging:
Braces: The current rigging plans do not conform to the precise method by which brace blocks were rigged to each yard. The practice of rigging brace blocks `dog & lady’ fashion as often referred to was not introduced until circa 1815.

Brace blocks for all yards, (with exception to all Royal Yards, the Mizzen Topgallant yard, and Sprit Topsail yard **), are to be rigged on a brace pendant fashioned with an eye splice around the yard arm. The pendant to be in length, One Fifth, to One Sixth the length of its respective yard. Pendants to be tarred. The running part of the braces to conform to the current rigging plan.


** The Royal yards, Mizzen Topgallant Yard, and Sprit Topsail Yard to be rigged as shown in current rigging plans.


The Fore Yard (Fore Course) Brace: the running part to pass from its brace block and run aft to a block seized to the main Stay near the main Top, it then passes down to the Fore Brace Bitts fitted on the quarter deck abaft the main mast. It is not to run via a second fixed block on the stay and led to the forecastle as often conceived.
Happy Building, Russ

On the workbench: My Victory Build Diary - Victory Cross Section Build Diary - Black Pearl Build Diary

Under the Bench: Millenium Falcon, Black Pearl x 2, Coral Victory Cross Section, De Lorean

Hoover
#8 Posted : 01 April 2010 14:32:46

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Not forgetting that the plume of feathers that adorn the centre of stern on the tafrail were not on Victory in 1805, (what is either side was), the plume feature was salvaged from HMS Prince (also at Trafalgar) and was put onto Victory in 1837 hence why it currently appear's on Victory, what was in the 'feathers' location at Trafalgar is still being researched, but its thought to have been a medallion of King George III or his coat of Arms.
John Wreford
#9 Posted : 01 April 2010 19:44:11

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Thanks Admin and everyone

John
Dave
#10 Posted : 01 April 2010 20:21:28

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Another interesting point concerning the date of the Victory model is the question of the entry ports in the sides of the hull. From what I have read, there is some evidence to suggest that she did not have these at the time of Trafalgar. The painting by Turner shows her without these entry ports, and the 1/100th scale model by Airfix/Heller, which was re-released for the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar shows her in this state. Be interesting to know if anyone has any information about this.
Boaz
#11 Posted : 01 April 2010 20:24:04

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Hi Guys.
I am an ex Matelot & when I last popped on board the Victory (about 1978/79)
I was told then that only one deck, 10 guns & one anchor survives.
The Anchor is apparently the one on a monument in Southsea with the words "Ready, Ay Ready" on the base.
Its a shame that not all the guns are real even if they came from other ships.
When you get up close they are pretty obviously made of painted wood.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could shame a group of our 60 grand a week pro footballers to donateBigGrin
jay7792
#12 Posted : 03 April 2010 19:18:44

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RussG wrote:
http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=78&Itemid=111

The following information has been disclosed to assist you in providing authenticity to your model of HMS Victory as she appeared at the Battle of Trafalgar 21st October 1805.

The Ship's Sides:
To be painted a dull matt finish black from the upper edge of the copper line upwards to the top of the side, divided with three broad bands of dull/matt finish yellow ochre.

Please Note;
1. The bands of yellow ochre do not correspond to the various wales (heavy bands of planking) or conform exactly to the lines of the gun ports.

2. The yellow bands do not remain the same width throughout their length but diminish towards the head and stern of the ship.

3. Each yellow band does vary in width, If you study the broadside of the ship on a suitable drawing/photograph you will note that the upper edge of each yellow band (with exception to the upper gun deck) generally follows the top edge of the gun ports whereas the lower edge is well below the ports at the midship area and rises with a slight sheer' to diminish in width afore and abaft.

Gun Port Lids:
Outer surface to be dull Black, inner surface and edges be a dull/matt finish Red Ochre. Those on Beakhead Bulkhead to be French Blue on outer surface.

Head Rails and Cheeks:
Outer surfaces to be Yellow Ochre, inner surfaces dull Black. Flutings and mouldings to be a dull finish French Blue.

Figurehead:
Cherubs - to be a soft White. That fitted starboard to have a blue sash that fitted to port side to have a red sash.
Scrollwork - French Blue and Gold.
Royal Arms - Heraldic colours - French Blue, Bright Red, White & Gold.

Beakhead Bulkhead:
Ground to be a dull French Blue with mouldings, pillars etc. in Yellow Ochre.

Stern and Quarter Galleries:
All carved work to be Yellow Ochre on a dull Black ground
Window mouldings and muilions etc. to be Yellow Ochre.
Upper Finishings - Dull Black.
Lower Finishings - Yellow Ochre on a Black ground.
Prince of Wales Plume and carved work - Heraldic colours. Lanterns - Yellow Ochre

Items to be painted a dull Black:
Rails, Belfry, Galley Flue Cowl, Skid Beams, all Eyebolts and Ring Bolts (including those on gun carriages), Gun Barrels. All Ironwork - brackets, plate knees, etc. Transom Knees on Poop Deck.

Tops, Caps and Crosstrees. Heads of all Masts, Bowsprit Cap and Head. Lower part of Jibboom. All Yards, Gaff and Boom, Lower Studdingsail Booms. Signal Lockers. Tips of Upper Studdingsail Booms.

Items to be painted a dull Yellow Ochre:
Gun Carriages, Lower Masts and Bowsprit including the Mast Hoops (originally black but painted over in yellow just prior to the Battle of Trafalgar on all ships in the fleet. This action, given under order by Nelson, was carried out to distinguish friend from foe during action).

Items to be painted a dull Red Ochre:
Gun Tompions, and facings of gun muzzles, Deck surface and battens of the Cable Tiers on the Orlop Deck. Alternative colour for the Binnacle.

Items to be varnished:
All Deck Pillars including those under Skid Beams in waist of ship. All Topmasts, Topgallant and Royal Masts, Jibboom and Flying Jibboom. All Studdingsail Booms fitted to yards, (and Studdingsail Yards if fitted for special effects) Binnacle, Skylight on Poop Deck, Gun Carriage Trucks (wheels). All Hatchways, Gratings, Shot Racks and Ladders etc.
Interior:
Inboard surfaces of bulwarks on the Poop Deck, Quarter Deck, Forecastle and Upper Gun Deck to be Yellow Ochre with black mouldings and fittings (Kevels, Cleats, Pinrails etc.)

Inboard surfaces of bulwarks on the Middle Gun Deck, Lower Gun Deck * and Orlop
Deck - to be a matt dull White to represent whitewash.

* NB: Ship's side on the Middle and Lower Gun Decks not to be painted yellow ochre
as previously believed - new evidence supports this amendment.

Deckheads - matt dull White


Ships Boats: (excluding the Admiral's Barge)
Interior - to be Yellow Ochre or `sad colour' (Yellow-Brown). Thwarts and Sternsheets
to be natural varnish.
Exterior - Dull White up to Gunwale.
Gunwale - Yellow Ochre *
Wash Strake above gunwale - Black*
Transom - as the sides.
* Although the specific colours and quantities used are known, records do not disclose
actual areas of application. In effect there were no hard and fast rules regarding the painting of ship's boats therefore these two bands of colours can be alternated. i.e. Black gunwale, Yellow washstrake.

Admirals Barge:
Interior - to be Olive Green - Thwarts and Sternsheets to be natural varnish.
Inner paneling around stern - Olive Green
picked out in Prussian Blue and Gold.

Exterior:
Dull White up to Gunwale
Gunwale - Olive green with Gold mouldings.
Washstrake above Gunwale - Dull White.
Transom - Olive Green with Gold mouldings

Boats Masts and Spars - to be varnished
Oars (or sweeps) Shafts and Blades to be White, Looms to be natural wood, Tips of blades were often be sheathed in copper.

Rigging:
Standing Rigging - all to be Black or Tarred except the
Ratlines - these were of natural hemp with a very light tarring.
Running Rigging - to be natural.
Rigging Blocks - to be natural.
Rigging and Blocks associated with the Gun Carriages and Gun Port Lids - to be natural.
Hammock Nets - to be natural.

Running and Standing Rigging Amendment Sheet

The following information has been disclosed to assist you in providing an authentic model of HMS Victory. These amendments conform to current research undertaken to rig HMS Victory as she appeared at the Battle of Trafalgar 21st October 1805.



Standing Rigging:
Mizzen Preventer Stay: To be omitted; not introduced until circa 1815.
Mizzen Topgallant Stay: To run through a thimble strapped to the head of the Main Topmast, and made fast on the main Top.
Mizzen Royal Stay: To be omitted: not introduced until circa 1810.
Mizzen Royal Backstay: To be omitted: not introduced until circa 1810.


Running Rigging:
Braces: The current rigging plans do not conform to the precise method by which brace blocks were rigged to each yard. The practice of rigging brace blocks `dog & lady’ fashion as often referred to was not introduced until circa 1815.

Brace blocks for all yards, (with exception to all Royal Yards, the Mizzen Topgallant yard, and Sprit Topsail yard **), are to be rigged on a brace pendant fashioned with an eye splice around the yard arm. The pendant to be in length, One Fifth, to One Sixth the length of its respective yard. Pendants to be tarred. The running part of the braces to conform to the current rigging plan.


** The Royal yards, Mizzen Topgallant Yard, and Sprit Topsail Yard to be rigged as shown in current rigging plans.


The Fore Yard (Fore Course) Brace: the running part to pass from its brace block and run aft to a block seized to the main Stay near the main Top, it then passes down to the Fore Brace Bitts fitted on the quarter deck abaft the main mast. It is not to run via a second fixed block on the stay and led to the forecastle as often conceived.


Very useful info thanks very much, just printed it off for later reference.BigGrin
_____________________________________

Currently building:-

Deagostini HMS Victory

Amati Black Pearl

Mamoli HMS Victory 1:90 Scale

Caldercraft HMS Victory 1:72
Peter C
#13 Posted : 07 April 2010 21:22:43

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Joined: 07/04/2010
Posts: 16
Points: 60
This is the sort of information worth printing and putting in a folder. A really useful summary of lots of issues and interesting possibilities.

Peter C
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